And now, for something completely different

[cabenson]

Dear Friendslist,

With all the discussions we have seen on femslash lately, I have a couple questions about femslash fandoms and their pairings for a project I may, or may not work on this fall. If you would be so kind as to answer in the comments, I'll send you nekkid pictures of theholyinnocent. Thanks.

1. What do you consider a femslash fandom: one that has a subtextual pairing, one that has a canon pairing, or both?

2. List some of your favorite fandoms, the pairings you "ship", and the episode that made you sit up and go, "OMG! they are so gay for each other!"

3. Most fandom femslash pairings bite the big one some time during a television show's production. Name a show or two that failed to bring closure to a pairing, and name a show or two that brought a pairing together in an acceptable way, even if the pairing was never seen again (I'm looking at you, SHED!)

and finally,

4. What should I wear to work tomorrow? Dressy, causal, or lazy girl in scrubs?

And, I thank you!

Comments

[archaica.livejournal.com]

Isn't the point of slash that it's subtextual, fem- or male-?

[cabenson.livejournal.com]

Not necessarily. Some same-sex pairings are shown as canon, but are still written in the femslash world albeit in "behind the scenes" or AU scenarios. In my opinion, simply because they are canon doesn't detract from the fact that fall in a "slash" catagory. What would you call same-sex canonical fiction (besides delicious)?

[archaica.livejournal.com]

.....erotic fiction? I mean, my impression of the slash term has always been that it was non-canonical, dervied from subtext read into it by fans. Sometimes the text is not even sub- , if you read it the right way. But then again, I suppose the definition of the word isn't dependent on how I would use it, but how the majority use it. So I guess that would be my question.

[projectjulie.livejournal.com]

there's definitely contention about this in fandom at large -- from what I've seen there doesn't seem to be any clear consensus. it might be up to us to decide, since we have much more canon than the boys (it was mostly an issue for Queer as Folk fandom, if I recall). there are good arguments for both sides, but my vote is for defining slash as fan fiction (i.e. derivative fiction -- hence it's difference from original erotica) depicting same-sex relationships, regardless of their canonical provenance. in practical terms, this is because it seems to me that lesbian canonicity is a spectrum, rather than a bright line -- how would we know where to make the slash cutoff? to put this same reasoning in philosophical terms, defining slash as subtext only seems to devalue subtext -- why is it any less "real" or canonical (as you imply)? one of the most important arguments fanfic makes in its existence is that there is no canon outside of interpretation, and that makes canon a very slippery thing.

[ralst.livejournal.com]

1. Both

2. Bad Girls - Nikki/Helen - technically, a comment in the Radio Times before the show aired. Episode wise, I think it was their first meeting/confontation - rule 47

CSI - Sara/Sofia - Bodies in Motion 'You're the detective, go detect'

Xena - Xena/Gabrielle - I don't remember but by 'A Day in the Life' I was already convinced.

The Facts of Life - Jo/Blair - I think from the first episode

Hospital Central - Maca/Esther - Hijos dificiles

3. Medical Investigation - Natalie/Eva - no resolution

Bad Girls - Nikki-Helen - resolution and disappearance.

Hospital Central - Maca/Esther - married with a baby on the way (so cute together)

4. Scrubs if you get to wear a stethoscope, otherwise I'd go with casual.


Now where are these pictures?

[theholyinnocent.livejournal.com]

If you would be so kind as to answer in the comments, I'll send you nekkid pictures of theholyinnocent

Threatening people is no way to get answers, you lush! You'd be better off showing us your photos of nekkid Shelley Winters.

1. All I need are two hot women and good reason to believe. So it can be subtextual, although canon is nice. :)

2. XWP: Xena/Gabs, SVU: Alex/Olivia, BG: Helen/Nikki//Yvonne/Karen/everyone elseexceptBodybag&Buki (now there's a pairing for you!)...and, in my wildest dreams, Calamity Jane/Joanie from Deadwood.
XWP: Last episode of the first season, the title of which I now forget...
SVU: Guilt
BG: The moment H & N laid eyes on each other.

3. Name a show or two that failed to bring closure to a pairing

SVU, of course. ::sob:: And XWP because I don't think you can have a successful relationship with a pile of ashes. While BG had a perfect resolve to Helen & Nikki, subsequent lesbian couples seemed to have been botched in terms of good closure.

4. One of Mrs. CB's sparkly sweaters.

[sing1118.livejournal.com]

I dunno, I mean, I only agreed to answer because of the promise of nekkid photos...

[landofshadows82.livejournal.com]

1. I have to agree with everyone that has said subtextual, even though canon is nice sometimes, too.

2. SVU-Alex/Olivia-Not sure what ep it was exactly. Just their entire on-screen chemistry.

Bad Girls-Nikki/Helen-I actually heard about it from some strange women on a message board... :-P But seriously, you can sense something right from the get go...

Those are my big two (besides, of course, the ones on The L Word...and Work Out).

3. Both of the ones listed above. N/H was kinda just...dropped. A/O was never acknowledged outright.

4. Hm....how about nothing?

[returnofpiper.livejournal.com]

1. Both. Though canon more strongly, I guess.
2. Ok, I'm going to be very vague here, because I'm not going to remember exact episodes.
-West Wing - Sam/Josh - There were early episodes where they just gazed into each other's eyes. So adorable
-Stargate: Atlantis - McKay/Sheppard - I'm only slowly getting into this one. I think it's the constant snark. You know, like kids tease each other when they like each other.
-SVU - Duh.
Umm... there are more.

3. I will actually have to ponder this tomorrow while I'm supposed to be working and get back to you.

4. Lazy girl in scrubs all the way. I have to wear a suit. Stupid courtroom attire. So I would like to live vicariously through your comfyness.

[sing1118.livejournal.com]

1. Both.

2. SVU- Alex/Olivia; Loss, Guilt, Wrath, Surveillance... I dunno, all of them?

Stargate- Sam with Janet, mostly because of all the episodes with Cassie, a few others, and mostly the one where Janet died. I can also really see Sam with Vala because Vala is the least discrimating character I've ever encountered. And she doesn't flirt with the boys anymore. She's always hanging all over Sam. Yay.

BSG: Ohh, so many. But my favorite is Starbuck/Kat. And it was DEFINITELY Scar. When Kat hit Starbuck. You know they had sex later.

3. I was fine with the way SVU left it after Loss. Ghost bit hard, even with the OMG ONE BED. ::sigh:: Sam and Janet were fine, too, I guess, except that it was never canon, though if it had been, they'd've been court-martialed. And as for Sam and Vala, that's still ongoing. I'm extremely pissed about BSG, because Starbuck is fucking MARRIED to fucking ANDERS even though she's the gayest character like ever.

4. Go with lazy girl in scrubs.

[bodhi-chenrezig.livejournal.com]

1. What do you consider a femslash fandom: one that has a subtextual pairing, one that has a canon pairing, or both?


Yes. :) I would say more subtexual, but I have a new fangirly obsession for this taudry, but entertaining British lesbian drama-dy called 'Sugar Rush'. it's a guilty pleasure.

<2. List some of your favorite fandoms, the pairings you "ship", and the episode that made you sit up and go, "OMG! they are so gay for each other!"

Sugar Rush, SVU, L&O, Buffy, Bad Girls, and of course the original - Xena.

3. Most fandom femslash pairings bite the big one some time during a television show's production. Name a show or two that failed to bring closure to a pairing, and name a show or two that brought a pairing together in an acceptable way, even if the pairing was never seen again (I'm looking at you, SHED!)

Well, I would have to say Xena, and since Sugar Rush is pretty non-subtexual, and more canon but hasn't bitten the big one yet - this as well. Thanks about all for me atm though.

Now...about those nekked pictures...

[sparklebunny.livejournal.com]

1. Both

2. Bad Girls :
Helen/Nikki - Probably from the very beginning when Nikki got the "death stare" from Helen.

Pat/Lou - When they were both helping Tina in 8.01! They're too hot NOT to hook-up. Well, I'd want to see it anyway.

Sugar Rush: Kim/Saint - From 2.01 I knew it would be love!

Weeds: Nancy/Celia - In 1.03 - Good Shit Lollypop when Celia propositioned Nancy. ♥

Wicked: Elphaba/Galinda - C'mon if you've read the book you know they were having gay love! ;)

3.
Bad Girls:
Helen/Nikki - Resolved and dissapeared. *cries*
Pat/Lou - Not resolved, it's all about the subtext. ;)

Sugar Rush: Kim/Saint - Resolved (though I haven't seen 2.10 yet, so they better not have broken up!)

Weeds: Unresolved. Nancy doesn't want the gay love. :(

Wicked: Unresolved. Elphie had to go and die, didn't she. :(

4. Casual. It's allllll about the comfort. ;)

[sparklebunny.livejournal.com]

CRAP.
I left out SVU: Alex/Olivia!

That's what I get for not fangirling the show anymore. :(

[aquila1nz.livejournal.com]

1. Both

A femslash fandom is any fandom where people want to write (or even just imagine) femslash.

2. Favorites: Xena (where I started out, and I still interact with people, and search for good uber), Xena and Grabrielle, Xena the Conqueror and Gabrielle, Uber Xena and Uber Gabrielle, and entirely original pairings that somehow still belong in the fandom. I (like almost every other NZer laughed in teh face of hercules and then Xena when they started, but I heard the rumours about the fan following Xena was developing, happened to catch the episode The Quest and the rest is history. Incidentally I blame reading too much uber for making me fslash everything I watch, subtext or no subtext.

SG1: Sam/Janet I can't cite an episode because it's the fanon not the canon that hooked me. Trying to actually watch the show just puts me off it. However Iove the a couple of the tropes inherent in the pairing - being situated in "Don't ask Don't Tell" land and thrust into a family thing by the addition of Cassie (especially because the nature of canon means writers can take her or leave her - lots of convenient SG babysitters if you want to write stories all on base or through the stargate and don't like kids taking over the story).

Birds of Prey (TV first) Barbara/Helena I've only seen bits of the show but who cares, I prefer fanon where the boyfriends are definitely just convenient addons soon written out. Again I love some of the obstacle to the relationship that have become canon. From there I've gotten into comicverse, where I'm all about Barbara, which means Barbara/Dinah because that seems to be the pairing that works best, gets written the most.

Voyager - Here I think I'm probably all about Janeway, at least as she exists in fanon possibility. (I so hate that the great storytelling inherent in Voayager got eaten by the urge to stick to formula - BSG shows what could have been possible. Mostly I read J/7, but I like Torres and will happily get into other pairings. And probably what made me believe it was reading Gina Dartt's subtext recaps.

Bad Girls - Nikki/Helen of course, watched and loved it the first time around on TV, read the fanfic, it all died down. I got the dvds last year after digging out incompete videos to rewatch. What makes me think they are so right for each other? The writer and the actors of course!

Law and Order SVU - Alex/Olivia - again I read the fic before seeing the episodes, though I had seen Olivia on the screen. I'll read other pairings for both of them. Still haven't seen season 3 and 4, but have downloaded enough music videos that I've probably seen all of Lost and Ghost. Season 7 has just started here, which is kinda painful. Mariska's portrayal of Olivia is hwat makes me believe. I'm not sure I wanna watch the stuff that makes me believe otherwise.

CSI: again I read the fic first, so far I'm Catherine/Sara all the way, but I wanna slash Sara with anyone (just watched the Maggie Doyle eps of ER too, and see no reason t o separate the characters in my mind) so will eventually et around to the Sara/Sofia too, i'm sure. But I loved China Beach way back and Marg helenberger is so sexy, so that's where i am at. the more canon I see the less it all works, but never mind.

ER: I watched Chicago Hope, not ER when they first started, didn't start watching ER until the excitement about Kerry started. Loved the Kerry and Kim, read all the fanfic. Have watched off and on since, will happily slash Kerry with anyone and Abby with anyone. Recently watched season 1-3 on DVD which gave me huge Susan/Kerry plotbunnies, because Kerry only existed to build Susan's storyline in season 2 (and for the bitch of the ER management styles contrast, but all the character stuff was bouncing off Susan).

Babylon 5: Recently started watching this on DVD, have reached the end of season 3. I had read a litle fanfic in the past - had a good idea of who Ivanova was, knew Talia was a telepath. Had no idea that the subtext was intended rather than a side effect until I actually got to the last Talia episode.

I also love Jo/Bair, Dana Scully/anyone and Jody Foster in anything.
Question 4 is too hard. And I'll think of a half dozen more as soon as I post this.

Question 3 is too hard.

[aqua-blurr.livejournal.com]

1. What do you consider a femslash fandom: one that has a subtextual pairing, one that has a canon pairing, or both?

Well, the pedant in me say it has to be subtextual, but the pragmatist says fuck that, there are too few female characters on tv as it is, soif they are giving it to me in canon, I'm all over that shit. So both. :)

2. List some of your favorite fandoms, the pairings you "ship", and the episode that made you sit up and go, "OMG! they are so gay for each other!"

SVU: actually, that fandom is obvious, so I'm not even going to elaborate further.
Deadwood: Joanie and Jane. Forevah! Unless they kill her off. I can't say there was one episode, just a creeping desire to see them together and then the cocksuckers actually began writing them in more-than-subtextual interactions through season 2. I've been viewing on the edge of my seat ever since.
BTVS: Faith/anyone or Willow/anyone. Because one is bad girl sex in leather and the other is canonically gay and therefore pairable. Whatever ep Faith was in first and whatever ep in which Willow met Tara.
Weeds: Duh! Ep 1, season 1.
Xena: Xena/Gabrielle. Some time in season 1.
CSI: Sara/Sofia, same as Ralst said. I had stopped watching so caught the eps 2nd time around--whoa.

I avidly watch Battlestar Galactica, but don't ship anyone on there yet. I think there are more, but my head is focused on my fucknut cocksucker show.

3. Name a show or two that failed to bring closure to a pairing, and name a show or two that brought a pairing together in an acceptable way, even if the pairing was never seen again

BTVS: Dude, they killed off Tara. Just after having make-up sex with Willow. In their bedroom.
Xena: Dead.
SVU: Ironically, the fake death was the GOOD ending. Ugly fucking sweater and nasty fucking pink.

4. What should I wear to work tomorrow? Dressy, causal, or lazy girl in scrubs?
Casual.

[aqua-blurr.livejournal.com]

Oh crap, forgot about Inara/Kaylee in Firefly, first ep. Because awwwww, so sweet!

[coolbyrne.livejournal.com]

1. Both, so long as the chemistry is there. As a North American TV viewer, it's a BONUS if it's canon!

2. Helen/Nikki, "Bad Girls". Didn't need one particular episode, as the 'ship became canon, but I would have to say the events in episode six of season one ("A Big Mistake") made it blatantly obvious that these two incredible characters with this undeniable chemistry were going to hook up.

Olivia/Alex, "Law & Order: SVU". Again, no one episode, though it never became canon. It was just... a convergence of little moments, little looks, little gestures that made me go, "Heyyyyyyy..."

Sara/Sofia, "CSI". I don't see it at all on-screen, but there has been some great fic that has made me nod and say, "Okay, I can see that."

3. Well, if the subtext between Olivia and Alex is to be believed, then I would say SVU seriously dropped the ball on that one. They could have taken a wonderfully brave step in making not one but TWO main female characters gay, but were way too afraid to do it.

Not a criticism specific to a pairing, but I've totally lost any interest in "The L Word". Just... gah!

Acceptable pairing, would of course be Helen/Nikki. Although I felt season three began a spiral into more soap than drama (which in my eyes diminished the impact of the H/N story), I can't complain about the ending. A fucking HAPPY ending. Between two women. Perfection. (And British. What a surprise. /sarcasm)

4. Scrubs are hawt!

[eclecticfan.livejournal.com]

1. Both - there's too few pairing to get too particular

2. BtVS - Buffy/Willow (my 1st ever OTP, even before Willow knew she was gay - way too much hand holding and too many long looks)
X:WP - Xena/Gabrielle
SVU - Alex/Olivia
SG-1 - Sam/Janet

I have come to the conclusion, I just like to see beautiful women paired together. How else to explain Alex/Serena or Oliva/Abbie. I don't believe they were ever on screen together.

3. The horrid killing off of Tara on Buffy is perhaps the most disturbing with Xena's death a close second (see me tomorrow and these could switch places.) But these two are where TPTB screwed with established relationships. Seems worse somehow. But then there's the travesty of Ghost from SVU - Loss actually confirmed the hoyay and Ghost put a nail in its heart. Same with SG's senseless killing of Janet - in a world were people have a hard time staying dead (ala Jack and Danielle) it's amazing Frasier couldn't be saved or reincarnated.

4. I'd vote casual but that's just me

[raginhoops.livejournal.com]

1).femslash= fiction were television fears to tread whether canon or purely subtextual. For me, I have to see the attraction to make it work.
2)Ivonova/talia this was the first fan fiction that I got into...I loved B5 and from the first scene in the bar between the two I perked up. Cause ,duh from ep 1 we knew Ivonova was a big ol dyke. JMS can suck my dick for dropping the Talia character and arc the way he did. And B5 was not the same after he wrote Ivonova out...Writer's arrogance killed his series.
Xena/Gab....subtext genious. 'cause Gabby had that girl crush from the beginning. By the nutbread scene, "you're beautiful." I knew they were going there. I think they brought closure well
3)O/A and all the L&O people It was about the time that Olivia cut her hair that I went Hmmmmmmmmm. And it was all about the arrogant hotness of Alex. I don't know when I jumped on their ship but Guilt spelled it out for me. At least we got "loss" but the show jumped the shark with the Oliska mess and the whole lets make serena gay at the 11th hour.
Liz/Rodgers------to me this is the best pair that has never been on screen together. I just willed it to happen in my mind.
4)Bad Girls Nikki/Helen First ep first look the best arch of them all. and the rest of the attempts at the lesbian loves have failed miserably.
5)Sam/Janet...they are so right for eachother, screw canon.I have never seen more asexual characters than on that show...except startrek. This changed with the new addition of Vala. claudia black may save them from themselves. I was horrified that they killed janet off. bring back au janet.
6)Scully. god i wanted her shipped with someone. reyes is ok in fan fic but not on film ...
finally what to wear? Dressy to work then scrubs. If i have to do it....

[tallulah71.livejournal.com]

1. What do you consider a femslash fandom: one that has a subtextual pairing, one that has a canon pairing, or both?


Anything with two or more women is potential femslash. :)


2. List some of your favorite fandoms, the pairings you "ship", and the episode that made you sit up and go, "OMG! they are so gay for each other!"



The first show that made me go "Hummhh" was China Beach. I don't remember an exact episode, but there was a storyline about KC having a drug addiction and McMurphy being the one to pull her through it. I've always been partial to the love/hate relationship.

Alias - Sydney/Anna - There's nothing quite as sexy as two women beating the crap out of each other. Like Xena/Callisto and Buffy/Faith before them, they bring the "OMG, catfight, they might kiss".

Alias - Sydney/Nadia - I firmly believe that incest is great if both the sisters are hot.

SVU - Olivia/Alex - That episode where Alex gives Olivia a long look. That episode where Olivia gives Alex a long look. That episode where Alex and Olivia do nothing, but give each other long looks.

Grey's Anatomy - Izzie/Addison - I like their interaction on the show, but I love them in fan fiction. The folks who write I/A are very playful with the characters.


Star Trek Voyager - Janeway/Seven - Pretty much every scene they ever had together was gay. They're good in canon and even better in fiction.


3. Most fandom femslash pairings bite the big one some time during a television show's production. Name a show or two that failed to bring closure to a pairing, and name a show or two that brought a pairing together in an acceptable way, even if the pairing was never seen again (I'm looking at you, SHED!)

Failures:

Voy - Janeway/Seven, unless Chakotay was accidentally spaced before Voyager docked on Earth.

SG1 - Sam/Janet - Although we did get that small little bone when alt uni Janet came through the Stargate. The 200th ep is coming up and is supposed to be a love letter to the fans, but we'll have to wait and see which fans that might be.

Babylon 5 - Susan/Talia - Just when things were really starting to happen, BAM, she's a psilon or something like that. The only way that ending could have been worse is if we found out she was actually in love with Chakotay.

Acceptables:

Bad Girls - Nikki/Helen - Yes, that was the last we ever saw of them, but it was a happy ending, imo.

Bad Girls - Roison/Cassie - Abrupt and a bit vague, but happy.




and finally,

4. What should I wear to work tomorrow? Dressy, causal, or lazy girl in scrubs?

Lazy girl

[charliesmum.livejournal.com]

1. I'd say both. Like, for example, Xena. Never totally canon, but still there in very obvious subtext, and 9 1/2 times out of 10 the fanfic is femslash.

2. Xena, again, and a bit of Buffy - Buffy/Faith and of course Willow/whoever. Xena had so many episodes of 'OMG they are so gay for each other' it would be hard to pinpoint. I can't think of a more recent show I watch that has that sort of subtext. (Well House MD, but that's male slash.)

3. Can't think of anything, and I'm not going to mention Xena again. It's too obvious.

4. Casual.

[maroukian.livejournal.com]

::whispering:: So tell me CB, how is it that you have pics of THI- nekkid. For my bribe, I'll take the pics or the scoop. :)

Answers:
1. I'll take either, anytime, anyway.

2. Favorite fandoms: SVU, BG, XWP. Eesh... I don't know much about any of the others. One fandom I don't get, or like, really: Harry Potter. (that fandom creeps me out a bit)

3. Name a show or two that failed to bring closure to a pairing: SVU, of course! and frankly, BG brought closure, but there was so much more of the story to tell.

4. haha! scrubs and slippers, for certain!

[projectjulie.livejournal.com]

I'm curious about this project! if you want to get comments beyond your flist, you should drop femslash_today and/or metafandom a line -- it might show up there automatically, but you never know.